Disconnect

[Goblin Cat 😸]

Do you ever just feel completely disconnected? There are times where I find myself wanting to post and share things about myself on this forum, but every time I do, I can't help but think to myself, "why bother?" I don't know why I've felt such a disconnect during the recent years around her given how long I've been here, but... I do. It's hard to get back in here and post when it feels like everyone you were once close with here are gone or almost nonexistent. Not only that, but sometimes I feel unwelcome because there's a lot of transphobia... Which is what makes me disappear from time to time. I'm not really expecting responses or answers, but I thought I'd try and reach out rather than keep to myself this time around. Or share, if you will, like I said I have had trouble doing.

[HollowOfHaze]

I am not aware of any transphobia currently in our community here. As for myself, I am always concerned with the wellbeing of others, and I am certain that many others would gladly say the same. I am aware that you have seen countless people come and go throughout your time here. That is an absolute certainty when you consider the nature of any forum, including this one.

Some people do not reply all the time. They do not comment on subjects they cannot help with. It is only human nature. I am sorry if you were given the impression that there is nobody here worth knowing well.

[Goblin Cat 😸]

I am not aware of any transphobia currently in our community here.

That's because any time gender comes up in a topic, threads close due to transphobia (I'd link to the gender FAQ thread I made with the intention of being educational but I can't seem to find it anymore but have another instead). You can't have a civil discussion about gender, even in an educational sense because you get bombarded with (at the very best) microagressions or people expecting you to fix literally everything they're doing wrong. A lot of people are ill educated about the issue and it makes it hard, as a trans person, to navigate in the day to day without someone making fun of you by saying "triggered" or other such idiocy. I can say from my experiences, I don't feel safe discussing things of that nature on these forums.

[Angder]

I am not aware of any transphobia currently in our community here.

...you get bombarded with (at the very best) microagressions or people expecting you to fix literally everything they're doing wrong...

First of all, you pretty much are complaining about what you literally just said.

Second of all. Forcing everyone to walk on eggshells only hurts discussion. If I have to watch every post in case I use a "gendered" term, or accidentally add an ed on transgender, I am more likely to just not bother posting at all, AND it makes out you to be a troll, setting people against you. In short, worrying about so called Microaggressions ((Which my spellcheck insists its not a word)) only causes further friction, and causes harm to the entire "cause".

Worry about the intent. Not the words. Otherwise the atmosphere becomes hostile, and nobody even wants to post. Discussion works when both sides learn, making people afraid hurts literally everyone.


Hell, I did not even want to post this post as you will just yell I'm being transphobic. Stifling any discussion which you do not completely agree with. That feeling I have pretty much proves the point. I can't disagree with you, otherwise you demonize me, that's how I feel about transgender discussion here. I can't because its too dangerous.

[Goblin Cat 😸]

First of all, you pretty much are complaining about what you literally just said.

Second of all. Forcing everyone to walk on eggshells only hurts discussion. If I have to watch every post in case I use a "gendered" term, or accidentally add an ed on transgender, I am more likely to just not bother posting at all, AND it makes out you to be a troll, setting people against you. In short, worrying about so called Microaggressions ((Which my spellcheck insists its not a word)) only causes further friction, and causes harm to the entire "cause".

Worry about the intent. Not the words. Otherwise the atmosphere becomes hostile, and nobody even wants to post. Discussion works when both sides learn, making people afraid hurts literally everyone.


Hell, I did not even want to post this post as you will just yell I'm being transphobic. Stifling any discussion which you do not completely agree with. That feeling I have pretty much proves the point. I can't disagree with you, otherwise you demonize me, that's how I feel about transgender discussion here. I can't because its too dangerous.

No you are pretty well setting an example for exactly what I mean. Exactly why I do not feel safe here. When a transgender person says you're being transphobic, you should listen to them instead of writing them off as a troll or being too sensitive. You literally have nothing to lose by modifying your language except maybe your sense of pride. You cannot learn if you do not listen.

[Angder]

First of all, you pretty much are complaining about what you literally just said.

Second of all. Forcing everyone to walk on eggshells only hurts discussion. If I have to watch every post in case I use a "gendered" term, or accidentally add an ed on transgender, I am more likely to just not bother posting at all, AND it makes out you to be a troll, setting people against you. In short, worrying about so called Microaggressions ((Which my spellcheck insists its not a word)) only causes further friction, and causes harm to the entire "cause".

Worry about the intent. Not the words. Otherwise the atmosphere becomes hostile, and nobody even wants to post. Discussion works when both sides learn, making people afraid hurts literally everyone.


Hell, I did not even want to post this post as you will just yell I'm being transphobic. Stifling any discussion which you do not completely agree with. That feeling I have pretty much proves the point. I can't disagree with you, otherwise you demonize me, that's how I feel about transgender discussion here. I can't because its too dangerous.

No you are pretty well setting an example for exactly what I mean. Exactly why I do not feel safe here. When a transgender person says you're being transphobic, you should listen to them instead of writing them off as a troll or being too sensitive. You literally have nothing to lose by modifying your language except maybe your sense of pride. You cannot learn if you do not listen.

but if I listen, and make a mistake, I become demonized. People have literally had their lives torn apart from claims of being Anti-LGBT. Its easier to simply Isolate myself from discussions about it entirely and avoid any potential backlash. Hence, I am being directly discouraged from learning.

Walking on eggshells is not fun. Most people, given the choice, won't.

[Goblin Cat 😸]

Not really. I cannot think of a single time where I've become inflammatory over such an issue. People are going to make mistakes. That's how it happens and it cannot be avoided. I do not become disagreeable when people make mistakes. I become disagreeable when people continuously hurt on purpose. I complain because it is not up to me, the local transgender™ to babysit everyone in the discussion. Most topics go way off point because a lot of people seem to think being transgender is a choice and that we should be satisfied with the bits we have. That is a problem.

It is also a problem that people don't want to listen or take 'creative criticism' when they do something wrong. Again, I can't think of a single time where I've gotten inflammatory over a mistake being made so much as I have corrected, but I can think of several instances where people have gotten offended at my corrections.

[Halei-Helai]

From one trans person to another, maybe the reason that these threads get locked is partially (not fully) due to perceived tone issues coming from either yourself or other people on the pronouns/grammar side of the spectrum? Even if it isn't intended on your part, your posts in this thread come across as at least slightly confrontational.


Yeah, I would really like everybody to use the right pronouns for whatever gender expression or identity any given person has, and I would be overjoyed to never hear "transgendered" again. I even think that pretty much everybody can be guided to use these terms and words correctly. However, if somebody is legitimately trying to be supportive, and you or I or whoever immediately jumps on them for slights that they probably were never educated about, you have a good chance of turning somebody who is an ally into somebody who is apathetic. You get more flies with honey, and all that. Obviously that goes out the window if somebody is being an insufferable oaf, but oftentimes it is a bad idea to be an insufferable oaf in return (this isn't a critique of you, I rarely come across your posts, let alone your posts about gender).


Ignorance on its own doesn't automatically equate to transphobia. Willful ignorance does.

[Angder]

Thank you Halei, you have pretty much explained exactly what I feel about the whole thing. and yes. I HAVE seen people jumped on for their first mistake, and yes, it HAS turned people against the transgender community.

Also, stop overusing the word "Transphobic" Its unnecessarily confrontational, and devalues it for when its really needed (Such as the thread "Dear reader").
Transphobic means AGAINST transgender people, not that someone made a mistake, or said something insensitive. Overusing a word makes it lose its meaning (see: literally, and its modern use), and means you have a harder time when you really do need it. This is why I did not take you seriously when you said "Transphobic" in that thread, I assumed you had just picked up on something said by accident, and were making a bigger thing of it than was needed.

[Zae]

I am not aware of any transphobia currently in our community here.

That's because any time gender comes up in a topic, threads close due to transphobia (I'd link to the gender FAQ thread I made with the intention of being educational but I can't seem to find it anymore but have another instead). You can't have a civil discussion about gender, even in an educational sense because you get bombarded with (at the very best) microagressions or people expecting you to fix literally everything they're doing wrong. A lot of people are ill educated about the issue and it makes it hard, as a trans person, to navigate in the day to day without someone making fun of you by saying "triggered" or other such idiocy. I can say from my experiences, I don't feel safe discussing things of that nature on these forums.

Ok, is that not a good thing that threads that transphobia come up in get locked? Isn't that what we /want/? And, you can't expect everyone to be educated on things like gender and sex, a lot of school systems teach very little on the subjects, or at least my school did. "But they have the internet at their fingertips! They should educate themselves!" Why? To make you feel personally more comfortable? I do agree people should be at least vaguely aware of genders and what have you, but not everyone is interested or has the time to fully educate themselves on all of that. It's like saying we should educate ourselves on every mental illness, disease, struggle, etc out there lest we offend them by not knowing every detail! It's just not possible.

Now, as for people who poke fun or act aggressively, why even pay attention to them? Why even care what they say? They're people on the internet, who you don't know, and will likely never meet. Ignore them. Having thick skin is a great thing. I used to get offended and assblasted over a lot of shit, but now I'm one of the people who poke fun, and get a good laugh out of people trying to offend me. I openly admit, I really dislike the LGBT community, I think as a whole they're one of the worst, up there with feminists. Not the individuals. But, having been in many groups for LGBT, they can be rather agressive and easily "triggered" by anything and everything, and they all pat each other on the back. It's just a giant circle jerk, and it's no wonder people often don't take them seriously.

And with people who don't agree with trans* identity, who brush it off as not real or what have you. That's their opinion, so long as they don't force it upon you, what's the issue? I'm friends with someone who I had a discussion with about trans*. He doesn't support it, and thinks the money going into surguries etc is a waste, HOWEVER, he respects me and still calls me by my prefered pronouns. I have no issue with him whatsoever, and he none with me. We agree to disagree, and that's what I think is great about having your own opinions. You don't have to agree on them to get along, you just have to look past them.

Long story short, post what you want. Discuss what you want. Stop feeling inhibited by peoples opinions - people are always going to have opinions you don't agree with, and that's fine. You don't have to change yours, and they don't have to change theirs. If the discussion ends up changing one of your views, great! If not, still great, you had a discussion that hopefully widened your view a tad! If not yours, maybe someone elses. We're on the internet, why should you care about other peoples opinions on you? You don't know them, and more importantly, they don't know you, so it really shouldn't matter.

Just my two cents.

[anoni]

Oh come on guys. A long time forum member posts about how they feel disconnected and unwelcomed in the forum and all people seem to do is scan their post for any excuse to start an argument with them.

Yes, there is politics involved, yes there is issues whether you believe the forum is transphobic or you believe it's being wrongly accused, it doesn't matter. TFF isn't about a political race, it's never been, it's never been about "who is right" and "who is wrong" and stuff, it's about friends, it's about welcoming one another regardless of affiliation (with some limits of course, probably not gonna be very happy about a neo-nazi or furry hater here xD). The point is TFF has always been a family, a family of people who welcomed those from all walks of life. It's a place where people who are having trouble can find solace with their friends, it's a place where people can show their unique talents, personalities and forms. It's a place where all of this is fostered, cared for, and loved.

  IF someone is upset about something, I like to think TFF members like to make an effort to make them happy about it. If someone says something that upsets someone, I'd like to think that the person would say sorry. I'd like to think that the happiness of our family members trumps the idea that "I am right" for most TFF users. Mort, the forum has changed, but you have changed too, we've all changed and it's a new environment, things are disconnected now but they can get better. You know you're always welcomed in this family, I know some people seem to be a bit aggressive, I know some people may of forgotten or may of never known what TFF was all about, but there will always be people who do, and it's for those people that I feel you should stay here. You've been here for a very long time, longer than me, so I know you know as much as I do, you're always welcome.

[George]

Actually, these accusations of transphobia might be relevant to the point of this thread. If you make a point of intentionally think of everyone as either a comrade or a villain, you won't feel like you're part of a community. You'll feel like you're in a battle. If you scrutinize what people say for influence of apathy and/or unintentionally saying things you don't like (the "microggressions") then you won't connect with anyone. You'll feel alone.


To put it simply, people are usually honest about their opinions. If it takes looking at what they say in a specific way to get offended, they probably didn't intend offence. A good example is calling Americans Indians. A lot of people do it, like a lot, but it's not as a slur. They're just used to saying it. Same thing with pronouns. We're used to saying "he" for males and "she" for females. (in the biological sense) If your social behaviour revolves around looking for potentially offensive things instead of actually communicating, you'll be lonely. It's hard to feel like you have people to count on when you're thinking of them as either with or against your kind.


We're all just people. We're not good guys and bad guys. To categorize and label us is to deny that. What makes us on opposite sides? Teams, gangs, and armies. Factions are what divide us, whether it be trans vs. cis or ISIL vs. basically everybody.

[Peanut B. Rawket]

Oh come on guys. A long time forum member posts about how they feel disconnected and unwelcomed in the forum and all people seem to do is scan their post for any excuse to start an argument with them.

Yes, there is politics involved, yes there is issues whether you believe the forum is transphobic or you believe it's being wrongly accused, it doesn't matter. TFF isn't about a political race, it's never been, it's never been about "who is right" and "who is wrong" and stuff, it's about friends, it's about welcoming one another regardless of affiliation (with some limits of course, probably not gonna be very happy about a neo-nazi or furry hater here xD). The point is TFF has always been a family, a family of people who welcomed those from all walks of life. It's a place where people who are having trouble can find solace with their friends, it's a place where people can show their unique talents, personalities and forms. It's a place where all of this is fostered, cared for, and loved.

  IF someone is upset about something, I like to think TFF members like to make an effort to make them happy about it. If someone says something that upsets someone, I'd like to think that the person would say sorry. I'd like to think that the happiness of our family members trumps the idea that "I am right" for most TFF users. Mort, the forum has changed, but you have changed too, we've all changed and it's a new environment, things are disconnected now but they can get better. You know you're always welcomed in this family, I know some people seem to be a bit aggressive, I know some people may of forgotten or may of never known what TFF was all about, but there will always be people who do, and it's for those people that I feel you should stay here. You've been here for a very long time, longer than me, so I know you know as much as I do, you're always welcome.

I'm in agreement here, instead of saying nonproductive statements and arguing, we need to ask the question "how can we make you feel better about this?" or "Is there something we can do?" Even if you disagree, it's the better option to at least make an attempt to make someone feel more comfortable, rather than immediately starting an argument.

So I guess I am gonna ask these questions as no one else has, what is there that we can do? The most I can say right now is pretty much what anoni said above xP.

[anoni]

The thing is George Mort has been here so much longer than you have. Mort already knows how the community functions, Mort isn't saying everyone is a villian or a comrade, s/he's saying that they feel unwelcomed. Read the original post again, Mort's post is

"here are times where I find myself wanting to post and share things about myself on this forum, but every time I do, I can't help but think to myself, "why bother?" "  No one talks about that at all

 "It's hard to get back in here and post when it feels like everyone you were once close with here are gone or almost nonexistent" No one talks about that at all

"Not only that, but sometimes I feel unwelcome because there's a lot of transphobia... Which is what makes me disappear from time to time. " THE ONLY THING ANYONE TALKS ABOUT

Morts post isn't "I feel disconnected because people are transphobic" it's "I feel disconnected because of all those reasons, and also people are transphobic". And that seems to be the only thing anyone cares about, it's not because they're trying to help mort (And honestly if you really think your arguments are what's going to help, you probably don't have a grasp on human emotion xD)  it's just because people seem to want to be right. They are more interested in defending themselves than they are in helping others, which is disappointing for me.

  Mort's last post is "I'm not really expecting responses or answers, but I thought I'd try and reach out rather than keep to myself this time around. Or share, if you will, like I said I have had trouble doing." You've clearly shown Mort that if s/he reaches out, it's just gonna be debate. If s/he says anything about transphobia, they're is gonna be bitter competition to anything Mort says. Mort says that they feel unwelcomed on the forum, and you've only help but proved that point.

  But sure, maybe you're right, maybe TFF isn't really transphobic, I hope you feel that validating that point anytime you can is worth it. I hope you feel right and happy that you feel right, I'm just disappointed by it, I'm very disappointed by it, disappointed that the only thing you seem to want to do is argue and feel superior, disappointed that you can't swallow your pride to help a member that has been here for much longer than you. I hope it was worth it. Mort and I share our disagreements on a lot of things, I've made a thread or so where there has been some very heated debate between us. But Mort is still a family member to me, and I will drop those differences when I can. I will swallow my pride so s/he is happy, I'm disappointed the sentiment is not shared.

Actually, these accusations of transphobia might be relevant to the point of this thread. If you make a point of intentionally think of everyone as either a comrade or a villain, you won't feel like you're part of a community. You'll feel like you're in a battle. If you scrutinize what people say for influence of apathy and/or unintentionally saying things you don't like (the "microggressions") then you won't connect with anyone. You'll feel alone.


To put it simply, people are usually honest about their opinions. If it takes looking at what they say in a specific way to get offended, they probably didn't intend offence. A good example is calling Americans Indians. A lot of people do it, like a lot, but it's not as a slur. They're just used to saying it. Same thing with pronouns. We're used to saying "he" for males and "she" for females. (in the biological sense) If your social behaviour revolves around looking for potentially offensive things instead of actually communicating, you'll be lonely. It's hard to feel like you have people to count on when you're thinking of them as either with or against your kind.


We're all just people. We're not good guys and bad guys. To categorize and label us is to deny that. What makes us on opposite sides? Teams, gangs, and armies. Factions are what divide us, whether it be trans vs. cis or ISIL vs. basically everybody.

[George]

"Not only that, but sometimes I feel unwelcome because there's a lot of transphobia... Which is what makes me disappear from time to time. " THE ONLY THING ANYONE TALKS ABOUT

Morts post isn't "I feel disconnected because people are transphobic" it's "I feel disconnected because of all those reasons, and also people are transphobic". And that seems to be the only thing anyone cares about, it's not because they're trying to help mort (And honestly if you really think your arguments are what's going to help, you probably don't have a grasp on human emotion xD)  it's just because people seem to want to be right. They are more interested in defending themselves than they are in helping others, which is disappointing for me.

I'll admit a big part of why I even spoke up is because it feels wrong to have someone who seems to antagonize people for no reason complain about being lonely, but yes, I failed to acknowledge much else. I won't delete my post because it won't do anyone any good to pretend I didn't say that crud, but looking at it, yeah, it wasn't necessary to post it.

The other reason, which I'm not going to claim was my actual reason for posting, is that the only reason I was thinking about for Mort to be lonely was the attitude he's presenting lately. To say I was actually trying to help would be a lie. It was "retaliation" for the things that I get annoyed with Mort for.


To put it simply, I'm actually saying sorry. I admit my behaviour was wrong. So for the others who were doing similar things to me, let's try to steer the thread back to its point. I'll stay out since I don't know Mort well enough to give legitimate advice, but maybe there's someone around who can.