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Author Topic: Furry Hatred  (Read 7610 times)

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Offline Grovygrunge

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2016, 12:36:17 AM »
Except EVERYTHING ELSE is disposable to your typical human heroes in videogames and certain media. Everything from the birds to the trees? That stuff is disposable just as long as the human race profits., Also, not all species only care about survival, and I'm sick of people making that excuse.

Maybe because wolves don't go out and try to wipe out the human race, or because rhinos don't live to saw people's hair off, or because bats and snails don't spend millions of dollars on soldiers and tanks to fight an idiots war instead of putting that money to health care. Oh, and lets not forget the fact humans are a species that often encourages the bullying of those who don't belong, and that when people try to help the planet, they are treated like terrorists, or that humans are a creature that knows right from wrong, but often doesn't care. Yeah, there are good humans and bad animals out there, but as a whole it's the actions of evil people that prevail over those who do good, and until things change with the state of our own species, I will always be misanthropic.

So what if we have opposable thumbs? And complex nerves and whatnot? Who cares? None of that makes humans look any less boring to me, so no it's NOT wrong. And no, I DON'T have to relate to humans, so stop trying to convince me to like or relate to humans, please.

I am currently working on a book involving non-humans. Lately I have been trying to think of ways to mature my book, and I'm willing to do a lot of things to mature the book. The one thing I am NOT willing to do (besides make it a sexual book or something like that) is make the book about humans. There are people out there DYING for media that doesn't star humans, as well as people who, believe it or not, could care less what the star of the book is. If it's well made, people will read a book that's not about humans. I would rather make a book about non-humans that breaks even at best than make a book about humans that makes millions. If people want to read about humans, there's thousands upon thousands of other books that star humans. My book is for people like me who want something different.

That's basically my two cents on those comments. Not everyone likes/relates to humans. Some people don't want the same human story over and over and over. Some people want something different. Sure, we get animated movies for those who don't want humans, and a few games every once in a while. But for every form of media about non-humans, there's 5 to 10 where humans are the absolute good and all other life is scum.
First of all, allow me to clarify something. Just because I pointed out why video game developers and other producers of media do these things does not mean I support it. I for one am glad that people, such as yourself, would much rather make something they want to make without worrying about trying to catch a broader audience at the expense of staying true to what they want to make. I feel I would do the same.


I too feel the high concentration of media where humans are great is a little ridiculous. I prefer my media to be a little more realistic, however I do also like to lose myself in some purely ridiculous fantasy where the good guy is infallible and yadda yadda from time to time. Technically those don't need to have human heroes either really.


I never said you HAVE to relate to humans. You can do what you want, not for me to say what you can or can't do. I just feel it's odd. Maybe because I take psychology and I'm trying to analyse it or something I dunno.


I do agree with some of your points. War is bad. I hate it in it's modern form. Merely men and women being made to risk their lives over ideas. More money should go into health care. I do, however, disagree with your claim we promote the bullying of those who are different as a race. In my experience it's been drilled into my head so many times I'm sick of hearing it. Year after year we all get together and have a huge assembly about an issue we are already aware of and almost all of us are against. From what I can tell, modern society in the first world, when compared to say 100 years ago or hell even 50, is much more caring for those who may be seen as different or weaker than the average population. and you know what, that's great. Not saying we're done yet. We aren't. Far too many still suffer. But we are making progress.


One final thing, you said we are a species who know right from wrong yet ignore it. You claim evil people prevail over good people. That doesn't hold much weight with me. I seem to be alone in this view point, and it upsets me greatly that I am, but I don't believe in good or evil. They're false labels. Things made up to push people into categories. To glorify the "good people" and demonize "evil people". I mean what even is right or wrong? I bet if you tried to tell me I'd find something I disagree with. You know why? Because right and wrong is highly subjective and relative. It differs from person to person and from situation to situation. Good and evil are just a product of the grossly black and white world we live in.


I've spurned the idea that anyone is good or bad or that intrinsic right or wrong exists. Why? Because when I analyse the situations surrounding actions and deconstruct the motives and beliefs of the people who did them I always, every single time, find the same thing. Someone who tried to do what they thought was right, no matter the cost. There are exceptions of course, some people do wish nothing but pain on others. You know what? They aren't evil. They're sick. They need help. Demonizing such people helps no one except make you feel superior and good. Good for you, helps no one in the long run.


Before anyone even says it, because we all know they will now that I've said I don't think evil exists. Yes, that also means I don't think Hitler was evil. I do think what he did was wrong. But if you look at his motives, at the base of it he was a man who wanted to help his country become great again. I mean it had fallen so far in the time before he gained power. It went from a young powerful nation to handing France money it didn't even have just like that. I don't see that as evil. His actions however were wrong and he did the wrong things and he got what he had coming in the end.


Also not believing in good and evil doesn't necessarily mean I don't personally view actions as good or bad. I just see them as relative and try to look at why they happened before I judge.


As a side note, Benny maybe try to avoid being too misanthropic, or you might just end up allowing yourself to be a person who will be viewed by some as "evil". Then again, do what you like, I won't stop you. We all do our own thing and try to do right by others. Right?


Oh before I forget, good luck with the book. I hope that goes well for you. :)

As a quick aside to what Halei-Halei said about games, you're pretty spot on there, friend. I too also wish more games were deep and complex. i personally think games, as well as other media, have massive potential to allow us to ponder ethical questions safely. But I also like to play something dumb once in a while, nice to blow of steam and relax and not experience some existential crisis because of a game XD Also I LOVE DWARF FORTRESS! Almost as much as I love debating, when things go well. Both are awesome.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 12:44:30 AM by Grovygrunge »
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Offline The Past

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2016, 12:43:24 AM »
Note: I wrote this before Helei's and Grovy's posts, and they did a better job explaining things, but I'm keeping this for my own two cents.

I honestly don't see much of the "humans are absolute good" in media anymore. More often I've seen humans learning to co-exist with other species and nature respectfully instead of controlling everything "lesser", or even showing humans as scum and non-humans as good. But even more media just doesn't really focus on any side, they just tell a story with humans and leave it with that. If they have an idea for a story that happens to be about humans against a creature that isn't human, that doesn't mean they are purposely trying to "oppress the non-humans". The non-human species is still capable of having ideals and actions that endanger humans just as humans to them. Or if it is humans being the aggressor, that doesn't mean the game is showing that it's "right". It's just telling a story.

Throughout my life so far as a writer and artist, all except one story so far has been about exclusively non-humans. Most furry, a few alien. I'm currently working on a second human-centered story (though it includes hybrid creatures as well), my first one in literally several years. Why?
1) That's just how the idea came up in my head, and it works well with it.
2) Even furry-centric stories can get stale, at least from an artist/author's standpoint.

The thing is about anthropomorphic animals is that you can use them to replace anything humans can do. And even if it's an animal with non-human capabilities (flight, acute smell sense), it is barely utilized, so in my opinion there's barely a difference aside from visually. They're humans with fur in most cases.

Believe me, I LOVE media with non-humans, especially if they do something unique with it. I prefer it myself, and approve people creating more of it, but I'm not gonna dismiss a human story right off the bat and cry "humans are not heroes! FURSECUTION!"
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 12:45:42 AM by Evnamishko »

Offline BennyJackdaw

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2016, 02:02:33 AM »
One final thing, you said we are a species who know right from wrong yet ignore it. You claim evil people prevail over good people. That doesn't hold much weight with me. I seem to be alone in this view point, and it upsets me greatly that I am, but I don't believe in good or evil. They're false labels. Things made up to push people into categories. To glorify the "good people" and demonize "evil people". I mean what even is right or wrong? I bet if you tried to tell me I'd find something I disagree with. You know why? Because right and wrong is highly subjective and relative. It differs from person to person and from situation to situation. Good and evil are just a product of the grossly black and white world we live in.


I've spurned the idea that anyone is good or bad or that intrinsic right or wrong exists. Why? Because when I analyse the situations surrounding actions and deconstruct the motives and beliefs of the people who did them I always, every single time, find the same thing. Someone who tried to do what they thought was right, no matter the cost. There are exceptions of course, some people do wish nothing but pain on others. You know what? They aren't evil. They're sick. They need help. Demonizing such people helps no one except make you feel superior and good. Good for you, helps no one in the long run.


Before anyone even says it, because we all know they will now that I've said I don't think evil exists. Yes, that also means I don't think Hitler was evil. I do think what he did was wrong. But if you look at his motives, at the base of it he was a man who wanted to help his country become great again. I mean it had fallen so far in the time before he gained power. It went from a young powerful nation to handing France money it didn't even have just like that. I don't see that as evil. His actions however were wrong and he did the wrong things and he got what he had coming in the end.


Also not believing in good and evil doesn't necessarily mean I don't personally view actions as good or bad. I just see them as relative and try to look at why they happened before I judge.


As a side note, Benny maybe try to avoid being too misanthropic, or you might just end up allowing yourself to be a person who will be viewed by some as "evil". Then again, do what you like, I won't stop you. We all do our own thing and try to do right by others. Right?

I know a few people who see your view on good and evil, and I can understand why someone would think that. At the same time, I'm not sure I agree with it entirely.

As for being "too misanthropic," I know people who hate everything about humans. I'm at least willing to admit that good humans exist. But as for people hating me for being misanthropic, honestly that's their problem.

2) Even furry-centric stories can get stale, at least from an artist/author's standpoint.

I switch back and forth between humans and monsters and, frankly, I don't think it gets stale at all. Yet humans got stale a LONG time ago. So far, out of all my stories, only one human character exists in any of them, and I can rarely draw him without drawing his pet bear as well.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 02:13:05 AM by BennyBunnycorn »

Offline Grovygrunge

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2016, 02:09:17 AM »
I know a few people who see your view on good and evil, and I can understand why someone would think that. At the same time, I'm not sure I agree with it entirely.

As for being "too misanthropic," I know people who hate everything about humans. I'm at least willing to admit that good humans exist. But as for people hating me for being misanthropic, honestly that's their problem.
That's fair enough.


Also your right it is, I for one used to be rather misanthropic during a much bleaker time in my life. I'm not now, as it would be difficult to be with my views.


Can I just say this whole debate has blown my mind with how civilized it's been? It's great. I swear usually by now someone would have strawman'd someone and the whole thing would have derailed into just people insulting each other. It's nice to know these nice, friendly debates can still happen without anyone getting at anyone else's throat.
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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2016, 02:18:28 AM »
Speaking as someone who wants to be a game dev, what advantage does an animal character have for marketing and sales over a human.

For most people: none.

Now think the cost of simulating fur, making new models, and doing any number of voice effects for these animal people.

Unless you, as the author, have personal appeal, or the game itself is basic and cartoony, its not viable.

Most games do not gain anything from being furry, so why go through the effort. Same reason there are not many games set purely around plush toys, or done in entirely comic book style.

I for one would love to see more animal based games, and might actually make some, but there certainly is nothing sinister about the lack of anthro's

Also to those saying that "they play games to get away from life", personally I suspect 99% of us are not buff space-marines, or world leaders, or wizards. For most people, being one of those is escapism enough.
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Offline Grovygrunge

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2016, 02:24:04 AM »
There's a surprising amount of smart and civilization people on here. I'm proud of you all.
Seconded.
 personally I suspect 99% of us are not buff space-marines, or world leaders, or wizards. For most people, being one of those is escapism enough.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Clearly I am a loyal follower of Chaos and A worshiper of the Blood God Khrone. XD
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Offline The Past

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2016, 02:30:31 AM »
The forums won't let me quote this part properly for some reason.
Quote from: BennyBunnycorn
Also, I don't get why people like you say you like something, yet ALWAYS end their statements with negativity, as if you're lying about liking something.

Edit: Oh, you removed it. Well, I saw it and responded, so eh.

That's not what I'm doing. It's something we learned in speech class; when critiquing something, you bring up the pros first, then discuss the cons. Saying the cons first tends to turn people off to what you're saying and they assume you're against that thing entirely. Bringing up the pros first lets people know right off the bat that you can see the good in something and you're not doing this critique purely to bash it. I'm being realistic.

It's the similar reason I tend to do a string of explanation statements before speaking an idea or comment. It's so people don't jump to conclusion with what I'm saying and tune out my elaboration before I can speak it.

I do use harsher language than how I'd more accurately describe it to make it more interesting to read, but I can see how people can misjudge it as me being an asshole.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 02:39:43 AM by Evnamishko »

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2016, 04:20:35 AM »
There's a surprising amount of smart and civilization people on here. I'm proud of you all.
I believe you meant 'civilized'? Anyway yeah Furries can be smart just like any other 'group' of people, not everyone in the world is a total deadbrain around the world.. sadly in some cases that type of person becomes the Stereotype for all their race. It's like just because one chess piece is blue means their all blue... or because  one egg is white their all white.... something silly like that... Oh bigotry..... how silly and stupid you are.
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Offline Crest Is Dead ((For Now))

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2016, 09:01:50 AM »
Hmmm. I don't want to be 'that' guy but for me it seems that a few of these comments are referring to themselves as if they where actually a anthropomorphic / feral animal. We are still human in the end. Sorry I this offended you though I doubt it would.
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Offline ST-84 Sahelanthropus

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2016, 10:11:04 AM »
More likely, Crest, I think they might fit a criteria for being trans-Humanists. A bit like myself. I'd go to great lengths to become something more than Human, although I do have a strong Humanitarian side despite my incredible distaste for the Human body in all aspects.

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2016, 12:17:47 PM »
Oh okay. Fair enough.
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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2016, 01:31:11 PM »
Speaking as someone who wants to be a game dev, what advantage does an animal character have for marketing and sales over a human.

For most people: none.

Now think the cost of simulating fur, making new models, and doing any number of voice effects for these animal people.

Unless you, as the author, have personal appeal, or the game itself is basic and cartoony, its not viable.

Most games do not gain anything from being furry, so why go through the effort. Same reason there are not many games set purely around plush toys, or done in entirely comic book style.

I for one would love to see more animal based games, and might actually make some, but there certainly is nothing sinister about the lack of anthro's

Also to those saying that "they play games to get away from life", personally I suspect 99% of us are not buff space-marines, or world leaders, or wizards. For most people, being one of those is escapism enough.

My problem is that there's just so much more diversity with non-humans than there are with humans, and what diversity CAN be churned from humans isn't utilized. We get the same military dudes, the same knights, the same demon hunters, and usually these characters have such similar personalities that they begin to meld together, causing games to get stale. That's the reason I don't get fired up for a lot of games. The ones I DO get fired up for, believe it or not, star non-humans.

Not to mention, making a game about non-humans would actually appeal to a broader audience, as most people will either not care as long as the game is good or buy it just for non-humans. I, personally, have gotten so sick and tired of "humans are the absolute good" type games that I literally won't play them. A game can have amazing gameplay, graphics, characters with unique personality (usually said games have none of these, to be honest), but if it's a narcissistic "humans are the absolute good" type game, that will ruin just about any enjoyment I could have from the game. Diablo III, for example, is a game that has decent enough gameplay, but the idea that ONLY humans can be good and that being misanthropic is the root of all evil ruined the game for me.

My big problem with your statement is that, if done right, making an anthro model literally takes no more money than a human model. If you seriously feel the need to make your character super-duper detailed, of course it's going to be time consuming, but does the character really need to have super-realistic detail? Most gamers are not turned off by games that have a slightly less realistic style. I, however, am HUGELY turned off by "realistic looking" games, especially ones that portray the whole entire world as one color. Plus, making tails and large ears doesn't cost all that much.

People constantly tell me "they're just trying to play safe marketing," but deep down I feel you guys are wrong. If non-human models are so expensive to make, why do people have no problem spending grands to make these HUGE dragons or hideous monsters. The money spent making all those monsters could have been used to make decent non-human creatures that are actually peaceful. But instead, humans are treated as gods of righteousness. You say it's not narcissism or anti-furry beliefs, but honestly I'm not buying what your selling. I still believe that it's a combination of vanity and throwing the middle finger to us furries.

Also, saying the negative things first BEFORE the positive things actually stresses the positive points out more, while saying negative things afterwards stresses those points out, and often times cancels out anything positive, which makes the positive comments feel like lies.

Offline ST-84 Sahelanthropus

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2016, 02:00:46 PM »
I don't think it'd really cost much more time or money to design non-Human characters either.

Someday I'd like to make a game that allows the player to pick from an extremely wide variety of species and body types, or perhaps even customise their own species to some degree. Probably not like Spore or anything, though... Or at least not being as 'silly'.

And on the subject of Humans being treated like they're special in games and other media, particularly among a cast of other equally-intelligent species, Mass Effect kinda does this.

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2016, 02:24:52 PM »
The Collectors go after them exclusively in ME2, and in the early parts of ME3 (I didn't play that one past maybe five percent of it) the struggle for Earth is made out to be more important than everything else.

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Re: Furry Hatred
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2016, 02:42:40 PM »
I don't think it's too off topic. It pertains to the issue raised by Benny, where Humans are made portrayed as more important or better than non-Human species that most appeal to furries. If I really must, I'll stop after saying this:

I recall a scene in ME3 where Shepard is talking to Udina after the first Council meeting, and regardless of dialogue choice (This autodialogue happens a LOT in ME3 even if playing with settings that allow for maximum choice) or renegade/paragon levels, Shepard will ask Udina of the Council "How can they be so blind?" for refusing to send help to Earth, due to all of their fleets and armies of course being overwhelmed by Reaper forces. A selfish Human-centric narrative was being presented to me even if my Shepard would have been understanding of the situation, like if they were a very selfless and considerate paragon.

But perhaps all of this is the fault of EA pushing BioWare or something, I don't know. Maybe if not for deadlines they would have had more choices, including one where Shepard could request any available forces that the other races have to spare, if there even are any, and perhaps sadly be like "okay, I understand you don't have any forces to spare during the attacks on your homeworlds" instead of being all like "you're all so selfish for only protecting yourselves instead of rushing to Humanity's aid!".
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 02:56:13 PM by Doctor Nefarious »

 

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